An idea....CJ8+

[jeepdreamer]

I sago for it!

Metcalf... this is a very hard thing to nail down. The sheer number of options makes it mind numbing to say the least. I would have to say the J8 would be the end result based on your initial wishes but sadly we don't get them. So that leaves you to build your own. The biggest balls to be juggled are cost vs effort. If you have mad fabrication skills it shouldn't be to hard. If you can be patient you could scour CL/Ebay/whatever to acquire most of the stuff you need to make something unique. You just kinda have to sit down and make an actual list and compare it to the green stuff in your wallet. Heres what I'd do...
Find a low rust/bad motor pair of YJs or TJs. Stretch the frame to get the length you want and graft the body tubs together. I'd go with YJ stuff If I could since I prefer the simplicity of leaves over coils but thats just me. Unfortunatly, if you want the rear to have the minimum amount of overhang you'll have to go with either 3-4 link or 1/4 eliptical leaves out back. The axles could be sourced but you will likely end up wanting to have them narrowed if you scrounge them from a FS truck. More money unfortunatly.
As for the diesel... thats the derection I am heading with my Scrambler when I get back from my next deployment. I looked at a lot of options from the VW tdi to the 4bt and a small herd inbetween. I stumbled across what I think will be a winner for me. The Cummins B3.3T. Its only in the 85 to 110 hp range but has a very flat torque curve and with a little simple tweeking you can add power pretty easy. Here is the link that did me in on this one.. Be warned, its a LONG thread with a mountian of very interesting and well written infomation. I read the entire thing in a few days and am exhausted. Give it a look.
http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/b3-3t-jeep-yj-t112807.html

 

[Metcalf]

Thanks for the ideas.

I'm pretty happy overall with my dodge, but dang. I wish I could shrink it down in size a little bit overall.

If my dodge had a 4bt in it instead of a 6bt I would REALLY consider dumping the guts of the truck into something smaller. The CJ8+ idea works out really well since you can use a CJ8 top AND the better departure angle of the CJ7/YJ/TJ rear overhang. Buy a 4 banger YJ for all the little stuff, new frame, new tub....go

 

[gavan]

My 1984 CJ-10a

88 Cummins 4BT
NV4500
D300
CUCV D60 front
CUCV 14bff rear with Detroit locker
Hydroboost 4 wheel disk brakes
Crossover steering
HMMWV 12 bolt dual bead locks with 37s

I honestly do not understand at all the hate for the 4bt on here. I have installed this one, and a bunch of others, and the noise/vibration is really no different than a 6bt in a first gen or an early 2nd gen. I have liquid filled mounts in this one, but the last FJ80 I helped with has solid mounts, and his wife drives it and loves it. Some of them are pretty hacked in, might have something to do with the dislike?

They are simple, reliable, parts are everywhere. Most parts cross with the Dodge 6bt like the water pump, thermostat, etc., the 4BT specific stuff it out there, it is a pretty common equipment engine. It is rugged, makes good power after some massaging, mine should be close to 200hp/500 ft/lbs. A little expensive, but that is the biggest down fall to me.

The biggest thing to me is the fact it is 100% mechanical. Nothing to fail, really. Mechanical lift pump, mechanical injection pump, mechanical injectors. I converted the only electronic thing, the cut off solenoid, to a cable pull. As long as you have a battery to start it, or a hill or buddy to push it, it will run without a single wire.

It is on a close to 3/t ton chassis in front, and I built the back out of 2x6 box, it is not going anywhere. It is a cut down M101a1 trailer for the bed.

Get a camper shell (the old boxy style ones work well), get the bows and canvas for a M101 tailer and cut it down, or, if you want to be really pimp, get a popup camper for it. It is a little bigger than a regular full size truck short bed.

With a 100% mechanical motor, heavy duty manual transmission, gear driver transfer case, 1 ton axles, etc., there is not much to worry about.

 

[Metcalf]

NICE!!!!

No 4bt hate here....other than its a tall engine and makes packaging difficult.

 

[gavan]

No packaging problems here!!

Well, the steering required some imagination, but not a huge deal. It is just a spring over on stock Waggy leaves. The motor ended up a little forward on this build for a bunch of reasons, but if I pushed it back as far as I could, I could probably fit it spring under!!

 

[jeepdreamer]

Nice! What kinda MPGs are you seeing with this? Cold starting issues? Hows traffic drivability? Drool!!!!!!

Oh, And I certianly have no "hate" for the 4bt! I just wish they didn't get so popular which drove the cost of the bread vans through the roof. Though I think a B3.3 would be better weight wise in a CJ size jeep and a 4bt in a FSJ. 6Bt is just too much motor (and weight) IMHO for anything that gets wheeled more than serving towing duty.

 

[gavan]

There just seems to be a lot of threads on here bashing the 4BTA. Just about any time one comes up there are people that say it is the worst idea ever. They probably don't own one, though... I think it is hard to beat the 4BTA in an expo role. Sure, they are loud, they shake, they smoke a little, but to me rugged, reliable and simple more than out weigh those "drawbacks"

I like the B3.3, it is smaller, but not amazingly lighter. It does not have the power potential the 4BT does, but that might not be a big deal to you. I wanted to tow my other Jeep behind this one, so I wanted some more balls. a 6BT would have been overkill, but probably cheaper over all!

Deals for 4BTs are out there. You just have to be patient. I got this one in a "project" with a front D60/rear 14b, NV4500 and a bunch of other goodies for 3k, so you can find deals.

I think what a lot of people "screw up" in the conversion is gearing. These things are not huge displacement motors and you cant gear them down to nothing and expect performance out of them. I have this one set up on 4.56s with the 37s, and I feel it is just about right. The motor is happier spinning at 2000 RPM all day long, and none of the weird vibes or droning noises of running them at 1600-1800 like some people think is "right".

This one is not quite on the road yet, but it is close. The last one I was involved in was a 1992 Land Cruiser with 33s, 4.10s, and a 700r4 transmission. It gets along well in traffic, gets mid-upper 20s for MPGS, and has no cold starting problems. Mine has a grid heater from a 1st gen Dodge, puts out a little more power, and has a manual transmission, but is a little bigger, and I expect the same performance.

This thing was initially set up with a SD33 Nissan diesel, and it was a sweet running little motor, but at 100hp/200tq it just did not have enough to pull this puppy around. Stock b3.3s are rated to 85/215, but you can turn them up a little to the 110/300 area, which is a lot better then 100/200.

 

[jeepdreamer]

I agree with you... there are a lot of folks (many that don't own or have experienced) that are negetive towards 4bts. I think they all have their place depending on what your shooting for. The 4bts two biggests downs (aside from random costs from interest spikes) would be the height and weight. But they fit and the suspension can be adapted to work with it fine. IIRC, the B3.3 is about 200lbs lighter...does that matter? Well, kinda depends on what your wanting the jeep to do? A lighter rig is more efficent as the greater the mass the more effort required to move it. If you were shooting for the best MPGs then I don't know... kinda depends on how the rest of the jeep is set up. If this was going to be a regular towing vehicle than I would be inclined to lean towards a 4bt since it will make more power with less tweaking and maybe not loose much on the MPG side. Since my CJ won't likely tow anything bigger than my Bantam trailer.. I think the 3.3 would work fine for me. And if I can shave a couple hundred pounds off...ok. The best part of the 4bt is that it shares a lot with its bigger brother reguarding accessories. The 3.3 doesn't have that.
What I would wish for would be a motor that has the 4BTs power making ability but have a little smaller size and about 300 lbs lighter... Sigh... Oh well. I wonder what the MB 3.0 used in the Grand Cherokee would stand at? The European ones are available with a manual tranny... now wheres that junkyard here..?

 

[jeepdreamer]

Whats this...? Mercedes OM602 DE2.9LA

build thread please???

 

[gavan]

There are a lot of factors that go into desigining a vehicle, and I know what you mean about some people's better ideas turning out a little, flat. I like the Mercedes motors, I would use a OM617 based solely on parts availibility.

I feel you need to design a vehicle from the ground up taking everything into consideration, I think some of the less than stellar swaps come from the "I like my Jeep but I want a diesel" mentality. I originally had a D44/14b in this truck with a 100hp SD33, and there just was not enough grunt. I considered keeping the D44 and going with a massaged 1.9mTDI setup, but I felt I would end up running the motor too hard.

The 4BTA came with different springs to help with the weight, a bigger transmission to hold the power, a bigger front axle to hold the weight of the motor, hydroboost for better brakes, etc. I went over all of the major mechanical systems to make sure I was comfortable with running them with a higher output motor. I feel (hope?) I did a good job. It is essentally a complete 1 ton truck in a smaller wrapper, which is what I wanted.

I agree the IP is the "heart" of the motor. I have turned mine up, put in a fuel pin and a 3200 RPM spring. Most of this is to keep the motor in its sweet spot for longer in the RPM band and let it spin out to make the gear shifts work well. Again, it is a whole process approach, making sure the motor has a RPM band that will work with my desired transmission and rear end gear ratios. A stock motor could end up as a miserable mess.


I do not think that the 4BTA is the be-all end-all, and I do not even think diesel is really appropiate in all applications. I have another Jeep set up for rock crawling, and I could see the 4BTA being a low revving axle destroying diaster in that chassis. I like my smooth power from my gas motor. BUT, it is taken out for the day or maybe the weekend - the 10 is for long term stuff.

 

[gavan]

I did do a little work on this thing. This is what it looks like stock.

They only made a little over 2000 of them, for the air force. They also made a small number of regular CJ10 pickup trucks, most of them ended up in South America.

A lot of them were shipped overseas, I have no idea how many stayed here. It was usually cheaper to sell them where they ended up and not ship them home.

They are easy to work on. They come up for sale here and there, I got mine from a local 4x4 board.

TAWL_BOY on Pirate4x4 usually has a couple for sale. Here is an older ad.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=820918

He will probably respond to a PM.

My build is very easy and modular, axles from a M1008, wheels/tires from a HMMWV, bed from a M101a1 trailer, 2x6 tube for the frame.

Definitely not something you will park next to at the grocery store:sombrero:

 

[gavan]

Some more current pics. It is getting close to being back-back on the road

 

[jeepdreamer]

Nice work sir! Still can't make myself like those grille/fenders (honest, I tried!) but they always remind me of that horrible YJ renegade with the full "ground effect" looking stuff. I do love the way you will have your own J8/Brute when your all done though! Still sportin' the nissan diesel?

 

[gavan]

Nice work sir! Still can't make myself like those grille/fenders (honest, I tried!) but they always remind me of that horrible YJ renegade with the full "ground effect" looking stuff. I do love the way you will have your own J8/Brute when your all done though! Still sportin' the nissan diesel?

Love it or hate it, it gets a comment every time. I like it, it is different, no one has one. Besides, I need all the room I have for my intercooler.

Dumped the SD33/TF727/NP198 for a warmed up Cummins 4BT/NV4500/D300.

 

[aruss]

Does anyone know if a CJ8 hardtop will fit well on an Aqualu body? I have heard the hardtops do not fit the fiberglass aftermarket bodies.