Horizon Trailer COPYCAT
- Thread starter 24HOURSOFNEVADA
- Start date
Paul R
Adventurer
Whether or not reverse engineering is legal or not I believe what he did in the AT factory to be unethical and sketchy, by posing as a customer.
However he stated that this design was pre-production and that there would be changes. I hope that he continues to evolve his product, and bring new ideas to the market before making anything for others and getting away from the AT design. However, if he tries to take this copycat to sell I would hope that others would not support this type of behavior in the industry.
However he stated that this design was pre-production and that there would be changes. I hope that he continues to evolve his product, and bring new ideas to the market before making anything for others and getting away from the AT design. However, if he tries to take this copycat to sell I would hope that others would not support this type of behavior in the industry.
highlandercj-7
Explorer
Edited. I still stand behind the good folks at AT...IDK bob well enough to slam him, but his ethics are questionable.
Last edited:
Gentlemen,
I am the accused.
I did visit the Adventure Trailer assembly plant and spoke with Mario about his trailer. At the time my wife and I were looking at them for purchase. I was also asked to look at them for a friend who was thinking of buying one. He wanted to know what I thought of the quality.
I visited and was very impressed with the quality. But felt they were some what over priced. I have built trailers in the past. Fully enclose car trailers, most of the toy haulers are copies of my trailer, which was called Pro Tra manufactued in the mid 70's through the late 80's. Almost all toy haulers are copies of the Pro Trac idea. Just like about every single trailer in the world. There are not many options to making trailers.
I did not steal any ideas from Mario. The only thing on his trailer that I used was the coupler. Which he does not make.
The frames are totally different, the axle is completely different, the options are different, the boxes are different, other than the front box which is available through any Jet Ski dealer.
The wiring and design of it is completely different. The rear access is different. The trailer is wider, and longer. It is structural steal, 120 wall. It has a slide out for equipment in the center box. It has 25 gallons of water on board that is on demand, no pumps. It has 25 gallons of fuel on board. It is set up to do solar with a 120 watt solar panel. All larger capacities than the Horizon. We have onboard generators, hot water heaters, shower connections.
I actually built a trailer like this nearly 20 years ago for a plumbing company.
I liked the idea then of bolting different boxes together for the main trailer. This is not something new by any means.
The trailer is not a cut rate copy. It is a stand alone trailer that is similar in appearance. But pretty much any military trailer would turn out looking similar.
I will continue to make them as there are no patent infringements. I am not trying to compete with Adventure Trailer. I am building trailers for friends. I did not attempt to sell trailers at the Summit. It ended up in the expo area due to my involvement with Josh and Heidi who sell camping lab tents, which were on the trailer.
This is not a cut rate inferrior trailer. It looks similar to the Horizon, but I have other designs that I am working on. It has far more options and advances than the Horizon.
The trailing link suspension that Adventure is selling is a copy of another rear suspension, used on sand rails. Nothing in the industry is stand alone, not in the trailer business, the housing business, the auto industry. All are close to the other in some way or another.
You are not obligated to like or enjoy my trailers, but under no circumstance is this a copy of the Horizon. We feel it is a comparable option to a very good product. Competition makes improvements. Compare the two you will be pleasently surprised I think.
Thank you for letting me explain the situation from our side.
I am the accused.
I did visit the Adventure Trailer assembly plant and spoke with Mario about his trailer. At the time my wife and I were looking at them for purchase. I was also asked to look at them for a friend who was thinking of buying one. He wanted to know what I thought of the quality.
I visited and was very impressed with the quality. But felt they were some what over priced. I have built trailers in the past. Fully enclose car trailers, most of the toy haulers are copies of my trailer, which was called Pro Tra manufactued in the mid 70's through the late 80's. Almost all toy haulers are copies of the Pro Trac idea. Just like about every single trailer in the world. There are not many options to making trailers.
I did not steal any ideas from Mario. The only thing on his trailer that I used was the coupler. Which he does not make.
The frames are totally different, the axle is completely different, the options are different, the boxes are different, other than the front box which is available through any Jet Ski dealer.
The wiring and design of it is completely different. The rear access is different. The trailer is wider, and longer. It is structural steal, 120 wall. It has a slide out for equipment in the center box. It has 25 gallons of water on board that is on demand, no pumps. It has 25 gallons of fuel on board. It is set up to do solar with a 120 watt solar panel. All larger capacities than the Horizon. We have onboard generators, hot water heaters, shower connections.
I actually built a trailer like this nearly 20 years ago for a plumbing company.
I liked the idea then of bolting different boxes together for the main trailer. This is not something new by any means.
The trailer is not a cut rate copy. It is a stand alone trailer that is similar in appearance. But pretty much any military trailer would turn out looking similar.
I will continue to make them as there are no patent infringements. I am not trying to compete with Adventure Trailer. I am building trailers for friends. I did not attempt to sell trailers at the Summit. It ended up in the expo area due to my involvement with Josh and Heidi who sell camping lab tents, which were on the trailer.
This is not a cut rate inferrior trailer. It looks similar to the Horizon, but I have other designs that I am working on. It has far more options and advances than the Horizon.
The trailing link suspension that Adventure is selling is a copy of another rear suspension, used on sand rails. Nothing in the industry is stand alone, not in the trailer business, the housing business, the auto industry. All are close to the other in some way or another.
You are not obligated to like or enjoy my trailers, but under no circumstance is this a copy of the Horizon. We feel it is a comparable option to a very good product. Competition makes improvements. Compare the two you will be pleasently surprised I think.
Thank you for letting me explain the situation from our side.
FurthurOnTheFly
Glamping Society
Well I've been following this thread for a while now, and it seems some people have come on here to burn Bob at the stake without even taking into consideration any other side of the story. Apparently the people from AT coming on here and giving their version of what they believe happened, and posting quotes of his and taking them out of context is now the gospel. I really thought up until this point we had an intelligent community here who might think before speaking, but apparently we are all so used to hearing the national news spin on things we can't hold opinions of our own.
You know I could understand the whole freak-out here maybe if I had taken that picture and posted it up and said hey! Look at this awesome trailer! You too can buy one and its better than those crappy AT trailers! But thats not even the case. And that picture was taken from a post that had nothing to do with the trailer. Again, that trailer was there to show off the Camping Lab products at the FJ Summit, not the trailer itself. However, since it was the only trailer there, of course people are going to want to look at it! You are all making a mountain out of a molehill...I cannot believe the uproar here over 2 trailers that have been built...2! The blue one, which is Bobs own trailer, and the green one which is Matt's!
I have nothing personal against anyone here, including AT....I don't believe in censorship and I do believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But how about making an informed decision here? We see it happening all the time in our society...you get information with a little spin on it and bam! Your decision is made. Bob was tried, convicted and hanged without even getting a fair statement in.
I'm sure AT makes wonderful products and has great customer service...they should considering the price of their trailers and the amount of them they produce. But you cannot tell me they didn't start out the same way. Trailers have been around a lot longer than AT has....their idea came from the South African and Australian trailers, which came from the old military trailers. Of course there are no patent or copyright infringements...they haven't done anything original! They took something that they felt they could improve upon, and made it better. Bob is trying to do the same thing, only on a much smaller scale for close friends. Aside from that you cannot tell me that Bob was able to steal intellectual property from AT in a 2 hour sales pitch.
I don't own an AT trailer, or a Bob trailer, or any other trailer. I subscribe to the philosophy that if you can't pack it in your truck then you don't need to take it with you. I am not choosing sides here, only trying to get all the facts out there. With that, flame on.....
You know I could understand the whole freak-out here maybe if I had taken that picture and posted it up and said hey! Look at this awesome trailer! You too can buy one and its better than those crappy AT trailers! But thats not even the case. And that picture was taken from a post that had nothing to do with the trailer. Again, that trailer was there to show off the Camping Lab products at the FJ Summit, not the trailer itself. However, since it was the only trailer there, of course people are going to want to look at it! You are all making a mountain out of a molehill...I cannot believe the uproar here over 2 trailers that have been built...2! The blue one, which is Bobs own trailer, and the green one which is Matt's!
I have nothing personal against anyone here, including AT....I don't believe in censorship and I do believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But how about making an informed decision here? We see it happening all the time in our society...you get information with a little spin on it and bam! Your decision is made. Bob was tried, convicted and hanged without even getting a fair statement in.
I'm sure AT makes wonderful products and has great customer service...they should considering the price of their trailers and the amount of them they produce. But you cannot tell me they didn't start out the same way. Trailers have been around a lot longer than AT has....their idea came from the South African and Australian trailers, which came from the old military trailers. Of course there are no patent or copyright infringements...they haven't done anything original! They took something that they felt they could improve upon, and made it better. Bob is trying to do the same thing, only on a much smaller scale for close friends. Aside from that you cannot tell me that Bob was able to steal intellectual property from AT in a 2 hour sales pitch.
I don't own an AT trailer, or a Bob trailer, or any other trailer. I subscribe to the philosophy that if you can't pack it in your truck then you don't need to take it with you. I am not choosing sides here, only trying to get all the facts out there. With that, flame on.....
Robert Bills
Explorer
bob said:
It seems to me that a guy who was "sneaking around," "stealing designs" or behaving in an unethical fashion would not take the time to explain things in what is clearly a hostile forum. I don't know Bob, haven't seen his trailers, and am unlikely to ever be in the market for one (or an AT trailer for that matter, since I already have a Bantam which has been in the family for over 40 years), but I respect Bob's effort to clear the air and explain things from his perspective.
As I said before, demand creates supply. The American economy is based upon the premise of a free marketplace, and consumers are free to vote with their wallets. While one may be loyal to a particular supplier for a myriad of reasons, that isn't sufficient justification for some of the accusations, name calling and lynch mob mentality that have been expressed here before all of the facts were known.
That's my two cents. You are free to disagree.
FurthurOnTheFly
Glamping Society
tibaal89 said:Wow, this thread is quite loopy. Seems like a lot of scuffle for what I'd deem a complete non-situation.
But then again... have you seen this recent picture of "Bob" (if that's his real name)??
Calm down, folks! :cow:
:sombrero:
Yes, and his next project is the "Death Star" model trailer, complete with superlaser!
gpwpat
Adventurer
Kind of reminds me what the big 3 did to the tucker automobile. While it does seem sneeky to go to AT shop posing as a buyer. you can get all the info you need to build one from pictures on the web. then you design your own using the influence of another company. Now I really like the Horizon and the chaser AKA "Bantam copy with improvements" I can't afford to buy a AT or a BOB. even if I sold both of my bantams I still couldn't afford one. But if I build one for myself not for sale would that be a clone and only a cheap copy?
If one trailer company makes a flat bed. and then another trailer company decides to also build a flat bed at a slightly cheaper price. which in turn makes the first company refine and supply a better product for the same or slighly cheaper price. Who wins?
We do. the consumer.
What if these clones were made in china and imported for 1K each. Now I don't condone that as I don't like buying goods from china if I can help it. But can you imagine what that would do? AT might also have to have them built in china just to stay in buisness. then it would get a sticker "designed in the USA" that would be a sad day. Very similar to the US bicycle industry. the goods would get cheaper in price and even cheaper in quality. The more I think about it. I really like building my own stuff.
If one trailer company makes a flat bed. and then another trailer company decides to also build a flat bed at a slightly cheaper price. which in turn makes the first company refine and supply a better product for the same or slighly cheaper price. Who wins?
We do. the consumer.
What if these clones were made in china and imported for 1K each. Now I don't condone that as I don't like buying goods from china if I can help it. But can you imagine what that would do? AT might also have to have them built in china just to stay in buisness. then it would get a sticker "designed in the USA" that would be a sad day. Very similar to the US bicycle industry. the goods would get cheaper in price and even cheaper in quality. The more I think about it. I really like building my own stuff.
robert j. yates
Explorer
Robert Bills said:
Actually I do disagree and see him coming on here simply to try and salvage what is left of his reputation.
The fact that his story has changed around is what seals the deal with regard to his unethical behavior in visiting AT's shop. He only served to repeat it above. Really, if one has that much experience building trailers, why even visit a shop............. unless you intend to rip them off
gpwpat
Adventurer
· In the picture of Bob’s trailer we see five violations of the FVMSS rules, one CARB rule and one California DMV rule. While these things will not prevent a trailer from being registered, it would provide a lawyer with a good argument should an accident take place.
I am curious what these might be.
I am curious what these might be.
FurthurOnTheFly
Glamping Society
robert j. yates said:Actually I do disagree and see him coming on here simply to try and salvage what is left of his reputation.
The fact that his story has changed around is what seals the deal with regard to his unethical behavior in visiting AT's shop. He only served to repeat it above. Really, if one has that much experience building trailers, why even visit a shop............. unless you intend to rip them off
Actually Bob has known about this thread since the beginning. He chose to only come over here now, I'm assuming, because it was taken to such a level as I have mentioned in my post above. Before that I'm sure he felt it was a waste of time, as did I, to not even warrant a response.
As for why he would go there to buy one when he has experience...if you were retired from a similar industry and had the cash, wouldn't you rather someone else build you a trailer too? His response, or "story" has not changed from the first post of this thread. Just because he didn't come on here until now to defend himself, doesn't make him a liar.
Sorry, I don't respect someone who urinates all over another hard working company's product ("way way way way way overpriced"). AT is selling more trailers than they can make, so by definition they are not overpriced. In fact, they could probably raise their price a bit.
He's over on the FJ forum just a few days ago saying how he has a 20-unit per month deal on the table, and before that he was looking for ways to ramp up production.
But his message to us is that he's just making a few trailers for some close friends? That's a lot of friends at 20 trailers a month. And all those designs. why so many designs needed for just a handful of trailers, Bob?
Either he's been lying to the FJ crowd all this time, or lying to us now. Either way, he's a liar in my book. And an unscrupulous businessman to boot.
He may not be breaking any laws, but he won't get any of my business, nor the business of anyone close to me.
BMonday
He's over on the FJ forum just a few days ago saying how he has a 20-unit per month deal on the table, and before that he was looking for ways to ramp up production.
But his message to us is that he's just making a few trailers for some close friends? That's a lot of friends at 20 trailers a month. And all those designs. why so many designs needed for just a handful of trailers, Bob?
Either he's been lying to the FJ crowd all this time, or lying to us now. Either way, he's a liar in my book. And an unscrupulous businessman to boot.
He may not be breaking any laws, but he won't get any of my business, nor the business of anyone close to me.
BMonday
ckkone
Explorer
bob said:
Hi Bob,
Thanks for posting!
I looked through all 100+ images of your trailer and I was very impressed, I really like the slide out solar unit. Also the attention to detail with the wiring was excellent, and the frame looked very well built. It is to be expected that your trailer would not win hearts over here, as this forum in sponsored by AT....
I've been collecting images of trailer suspensions from around the world for a while, here is a link to the images that may give you some inspiration if you ever want to upgrade that axle.
Trailer Suspensions