Boomer the Quadravan 4x4 Camper
- Thread starter spencyg
- Start date
I've looked into FOA stuff...seems pretty nice for the money. I'll need to do a bit more thinking on the spring configuration. I really don't like how the stock springs are done with the lift blocks, but maybe I'm just over thinking it. Regardless of what I do for the spring, upgrading to a higher end shock is going to require chopping the existing spring buckets to make room for a higher upper mounting position for the shocks. I also need to move the shocks outboard so the lower mount isn't on top of the radius arm. At ride height, I currently have 15" between the upper and lower mounts. With FOA, King or Fox 6" travel shocks, I need that number to be at least 17, preferably 18". Since I need to rework the coil buckets, maybe this is how I "fix" the current lift block situation.
Just so I'm clear, the hesitation with a coilover is just the undue complexity, reliability, longevity...?? I do see how having the spring and shock combined could be a nuisance from a service perspective, and I suspect the threaded shock body would get corroded pretty quickly.
SG
Just so I'm clear, the hesitation with a coilover is just the undue complexity, reliability, longevity...?? I do see how having the spring and shock combined could be a nuisance from a service perspective, and I suspect the threaded shock body would get corroded pretty quickly.
SG
To me it's a combo of the complexity with parts availability. The availability having more weight in my consideration.
But if you're already going to be modifying to fit a larger shock or to place it better, I would consider the coil overs. Might even make it easier to install. I've no doubt in your ability to make it work well.
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But if you're already going to be modifying to fit a larger shock or to place it better, I would consider the coil overs. Might even make it easier to install. I've no doubt in your ability to make it work well.
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Petrolburner
Explorer
Coil overs are nothing new, I wouldn't worry too much about the threaded body corroding. It's anodized and if you drive in the salt hose them off regularly. If you drive in the salt everything is going to turn to garbage way too fast anyway. I'd prefer the packaging of coil over vs a separate spring and shock. If you're over heating your current shocks then it will be worth it to step up. FWIW, I've been absolutely shocked that I wasn't able to overheat and lose the dampening effectiveness on my Fox 2.0 shocks on my Motovan. This was after many miles of driving fast over rough dirt roads in Baja at an ambient temp of 80 degrees F. Really impressive for a non remote reservoir shock.
Petrolburner
Explorer
Also, switching to a progressive spring combined with the increased travel made a huge difference in the enjoyability of my Motovan.
Herbie
Rendezvous Conspirator
For me, the biggest advantage of coilovers is that you can somewhat decouple ride height from spring rate. Within a band, by swapping springs and changing preload, you can change the rates without raising the vehicle (or vice-versa, raise things up without going to stiffer springs). This is doable by swapping regular coils too, but the geometry is more tricky since it has to be pre-calculated, instead of just adjusted once loaded.
This leads to the other nice thing about coilovers: Springs tend to run pretty cheap in a generic size, compared to larger coils where they have different tops/bottoms/grinds for 100 different applications. There's a guy I raced with (Formula Ford - open wheel/open cockpit) who was a wizard at setting up cars, and would do it for other people. The first thing he always did was chuck the old springs and start with fresh ones on the coilvers - at our amateur level you don't have good enough data tracking to know how many cycles, etc. a spring has been through, so making a guess at how much it had relaxed was tough, and the cost of putting the spring on the dyno was almost as much as just getting a fresh box.
If you have oxidation concerns about the coilver bodies, hit 'em with a spray of Fluid Film as part of your winter prep, they'll be fine.
I agree regarding double or outboard-reservoir shocks - unless you frequently "prerunning" large sections of washboard, standard single probably fine. Coilovers help a bit here too, as the aluminum threaded body acts a bit like a heat sink.
This leads to the other nice thing about coilovers: Springs tend to run pretty cheap in a generic size, compared to larger coils where they have different tops/bottoms/grinds for 100 different applications. There's a guy I raced with (Formula Ford - open wheel/open cockpit) who was a wizard at setting up cars, and would do it for other people. The first thing he always did was chuck the old springs and start with fresh ones on the coilvers - at our amateur level you don't have good enough data tracking to know how many cycles, etc. a spring has been through, so making a guess at how much it had relaxed was tough, and the cost of putting the spring on the dyno was almost as much as just getting a fresh box.
If you have oxidation concerns about the coilver bodies, hit 'em with a spray of Fluid Film as part of your winter prep, they'll be fine.
I agree regarding double or outboard-reservoir shocks - unless you frequently "prerunning" large sections of washboard, standard single probably fine. Coilovers help a bit here too, as the aluminum threaded body acts a bit like a heat sink.
Mwilliamshs
Explorer
I'm sure spencyg knows this but progressive springs aren't necessary for coilovers to perform progressively. A stiffer and softer spring, both being straight-wound (i.e. not progressive) can be stacked and react progressively when in fact, neither is.
Thank you all for this excellent feedback and perspective. Looking at Boomer's front suspension, it will be far easier for me to consider a single upper and lower mounting scheme instead of something separate for a spring and shock. I too like the idea of being able to slightly adjust ride height seperate from spring rate, and if I can get the adjusters to stay free thru our climate here than a coilover seems like it will be the least amount of work in the end. Yes, it is relatively fancy hardware but I feel as though any high end shock no available at the local NAPA will fall under this category at some level. Interesting points about abandoning the remote reservoir. It certainly would be cheaper to start off this way, and I could always upgrade later to a reservoir shock if I continue to fade the system on high speed dirt.
As for progressive vs straight springs. Good points. Unfortunately I'll be limited to a 6" or 8" travel front shock, and these travel ranges don't permit (as best I've seen so far) multiple spring stacking. King and Fox both start multi spring setups at 10" travel. If I can raise up the van just another 0.75-1" it will give me around 3.5" of up travel, so with an 8" travel shock I should have a good amount of suspension range. Right now I've got 2.5" up and 2" down. Silly.
Brake parts are starting to arrive and that is the first step. I'm going to start with the rear disc conversion along with a good proportioning valve, then work forward to the hydroboost with a disc/disc master cylinder from a later model E350. The brake line adapters and firewall mounting plate are already identified as problem areas. Fun fun.
SG
As for progressive vs straight springs. Good points. Unfortunately I'll be limited to a 6" or 8" travel front shock, and these travel ranges don't permit (as best I've seen so far) multiple spring stacking. King and Fox both start multi spring setups at 10" travel. If I can raise up the van just another 0.75-1" it will give me around 3.5" of up travel, so with an 8" travel shock I should have a good amount of suspension range. Right now I've got 2.5" up and 2" down. Silly.
Brake parts are starting to arrive and that is the first step. I'm going to start with the rear disc conversion along with a good proportioning valve, then work forward to the hydroboost with a disc/disc master cylinder from a later model E350. The brake line adapters and firewall mounting plate are already identified as problem areas. Fun fun.
SG
Herbie
Rendezvous Conspirator
That's already loads better than what you started with, though! ;-)
Petrolburner
Explorer
Yes that would give you some more fine tuning in spring rates. I've never used them but I've seen them around plenty.
FYI my van is a 2WD running the WeldTec Octillo Cruiser kit with bent beams and modified radius arms plus the longer progressive springs for the increased travel. I don't have 4WD and the coils and shock are in their separate stock locations.
Since you're in uncharted territory, you're doing the testing on the prototype. Being able to swap coil springs easily on a 2.5" King shock body might be a real advantage to your setup. You'd have plenty of springs to choose from also, whereas if it has to fit a certain coil bucket your choices are going to be more limited and it could be really hard to figure out what's even available. It's worth noting that once you find the right spring and ride height, you're probably not going to be adjusting the threaded collar much. It's worth keeping it clean and corrosion free so that you can disassemble it, but I doubt you're really going to be cranking up the preload before each trip based on the load.
This entire build has been uncharted territory. Why rock the boat now??
I've been going back and forth with the guys at F-O-A Shocks in NV and think I will go with these guys, at least for round 1. If this doesn't work out and I've spent $2k on a set of dampers...well...that doesn't work. I can get a full set of 2.5" body FOA units, Emulsion 8" travel in the back and Coilover 8" travel up front, for under a grand. Once I've got the right coil springs and new leaf springs I'll likely be a bit over that price, but not by a whole lot. The mounting between brands seems to be nearly identical, so whatever I fab up for the FOA could easily accept another brand down the road if needed. Of course all brands have their bad seeds out there making poor reviews, but overall folks seem happy with them and I like how simple the guts are to maintain and rebuild. Further, swapping valving doesn't seem like much of a chore which will be good once the rig is back together and testing commences.
Brakes first though. Brakes first.
SG
I've been going back and forth with the guys at F-O-A Shocks in NV and think I will go with these guys, at least for round 1. If this doesn't work out and I've spent $2k on a set of dampers...well...that doesn't work. I can get a full set of 2.5" body FOA units, Emulsion 8" travel in the back and Coilover 8" travel up front, for under a grand. Once I've got the right coil springs and new leaf springs I'll likely be a bit over that price, but not by a whole lot. The mounting between brands seems to be nearly identical, so whatever I fab up for the FOA could easily accept another brand down the road if needed. Of course all brands have their bad seeds out there making poor reviews, but overall folks seem happy with them and I like how simple the guts are to maintain and rebuild. Further, swapping valving doesn't seem like much of a chore which will be good once the rig is back together and testing commences.
Brakes first though. Brakes first.
SG
RIDGE
Adventurer
I just read your thread from start to finish. I'm in awe of your abilities. Your work ethic is something to be admired! AMAZING!
Here are a couple ideas to float around. GM 14 Bolt rear ends are cheap, bullet proof (full float), and fit right in our vans (width-wise). I have a disk brake conversion and an ARB in mine. The lug patterns match as well. Running the selectable locker allows me to get through some stuff at a slower pace, so I don't tear up my van.
Ramsey at Agile Off-Road did the TTB Dana 50 conversion on my van. My van sits lower than yours and I'm running 35" tires. On top of all that goodness, I've got at least 5" of up travel and 6" of droop. The van rides like a true (not Quadravan factory) factory built truck! You could spend twice as much in coilovers and you still wont have as nice of a ride.
Speaking of coilovers, I race off-road trucks/buggies and those shocks are kind of high maintenance. If you think about it, they are built for off-road race cars which require a ton of maintenance. Being out in the boonies, I'd MUCH rather have a coil spring and regular shock set-up. If you do your own TTB conversion (which will be easy for you), Ramsey (Agile Off-Road) already has the correct spring rate and Fox shock valving for your camper van, because he owns one and has already converted it! That will take a lot of guess work out of it. Ramsey knows what he is doing too, he's won the Baja 1000 a few times...he's no rookie.
I wouldn't say I abuse it, but I do put it through it's paces.
It still tows fine...for a Ford van. LOL
And, because of a picture I saw of Boomer, I just recently bought this!
Chris
Here are a couple ideas to float around. GM 14 Bolt rear ends are cheap, bullet proof (full float), and fit right in our vans (width-wise). I have a disk brake conversion and an ARB in mine. The lug patterns match as well. Running the selectable locker allows me to get through some stuff at a slower pace, so I don't tear up my van.
Ramsey at Agile Off-Road did the TTB Dana 50 conversion on my van. My van sits lower than yours and I'm running 35" tires. On top of all that goodness, I've got at least 5" of up travel and 6" of droop. The van rides like a true (not Quadravan factory) factory built truck! You could spend twice as much in coilovers and you still wont have as nice of a ride.
Speaking of coilovers, I race off-road trucks/buggies and those shocks are kind of high maintenance. If you think about it, they are built for off-road race cars which require a ton of maintenance. Being out in the boonies, I'd MUCH rather have a coil spring and regular shock set-up. If you do your own TTB conversion (which will be easy for you), Ramsey (Agile Off-Road) already has the correct spring rate and Fox shock valving for your camper van, because he owns one and has already converted it! That will take a lot of guess work out of it. Ramsey knows what he is doing too, he's won the Baja 1000 a few times...he's no rookie.
I wouldn't say I abuse it, but I do put it through it's paces.
It still tows fine...for a Ford van. LOL
And, because of a picture I saw of Boomer, I just recently bought this!
Chris
Thanks for the kind words. LOVE that Falcon!! Can't say I've seen one on a 4th gen chassis. Very cool.
You've made some great points here which I'd like to have a bit more discussion about.
1. 14 Bolt Rear. I was actually headed down this road recently and found a unit locally with disc brakes. The thing that makes this axle really not work in my particular case is that there isn't a 3.54 gear set available. My options are 3.42 and 3.73. There aren't any 3.42 gears available for the Dana 44, so I'm stuck with 3.73. Going shorter in my gearing is not something I want to do, as the 6.9 diesel already spins up too high on the interstate. Eventually I want to do a GV Overdrive, and with 3.54 gearing it puts the engine right where I want it. Going to 3.73 and I'd still be spinning too high with the GV. So, I will be the first to acknowledge the benefits of a 14 bolt...clearly a big step up from the current Dana 60. Unfortunately, it isn't in the cards. As I search my soul on the "real" need to have a bigger axle, the fact remains that the Dana 60 has been holding up just fine with the type of usage I put the van thru. I'm going thru a rear disc conversion right now, and I'll be doing an Ox locker with 35 spline axle upgrades in the future.
2. TTB. I think TTB is awesome but I'm so far down the road with Boomer's suspension that starting over again at this point isn't in the cards. I really like the way the van rides 90% of the time. The last 10% of the time I'm having problems with dampening as well as spring rate. Once those final issues are fixed I'll be where I need to be.
3. Interesting viewpoint on the coilovers. My typical usage is around 2500 miles per year, half of which being higher speed dirt. I do about 50 miles of actual "trail" a year, an none of it involves lifting a tire With that sort of usage in mind, would coilovers present all that much more maintenance headache than if I were to have equally rebuildable/tunable emulsion smooth body shocks? I have no intention of going with an off the shelf damper solution, as the valving required in my rig due to both weight and center of gravity exceed (by a large margin) what a typical heavy duty shock can accommodate. I obliterate Rancho 9000 units (2" piston, 7/8" shaft) in 20 minutes of higher speed dirt travel. Bilstein shocks in the 7000 and 9000 series look like a possibility, but their quality from unit to unit seems pretty variable these days. With your background and experience, I'm curious what brands / models you run in your rig.
Thanks again. Good stuff.
SG
You've made some great points here which I'd like to have a bit more discussion about.
1. 14 Bolt Rear. I was actually headed down this road recently and found a unit locally with disc brakes. The thing that makes this axle really not work in my particular case is that there isn't a 3.54 gear set available. My options are 3.42 and 3.73. There aren't any 3.42 gears available for the Dana 44, so I'm stuck with 3.73. Going shorter in my gearing is not something I want to do, as the 6.9 diesel already spins up too high on the interstate. Eventually I want to do a GV Overdrive, and with 3.54 gearing it puts the engine right where I want it. Going to 3.73 and I'd still be spinning too high with the GV. So, I will be the first to acknowledge the benefits of a 14 bolt...clearly a big step up from the current Dana 60. Unfortunately, it isn't in the cards. As I search my soul on the "real" need to have a bigger axle, the fact remains that the Dana 60 has been holding up just fine with the type of usage I put the van thru. I'm going thru a rear disc conversion right now, and I'll be doing an Ox locker with 35 spline axle upgrades in the future.
2. TTB. I think TTB is awesome but I'm so far down the road with Boomer's suspension that starting over again at this point isn't in the cards. I really like the way the van rides 90% of the time. The last 10% of the time I'm having problems with dampening as well as spring rate. Once those final issues are fixed I'll be where I need to be.
3. Interesting viewpoint on the coilovers. My typical usage is around 2500 miles per year, half of which being higher speed dirt. I do about 50 miles of actual "trail" a year, an none of it involves lifting a tire
With that sort of usage in mind, would coilovers present all that much more maintenance headache than if I were to have equally rebuildable/tunable emulsion smooth body shocks? I have no intention of going with an off the shelf damper solution, as the valving required in my rig due to both weight and center of gravity exceed (by a large margin) what a typical heavy duty shock can accommodate. I obliterate Rancho 9000 units (2" piston, 7/8" shaft) in 20 minutes of higher speed dirt travel. Bilstein shocks in the 7000 and 9000 series look like a possibility, but their quality from unit to unit seems pretty variable these days. With your background and experience, I'm curious what brands / models you run in your rig. Thanks again. Good stuff.
SG
RIDGE
Adventurer
As far as your 2500 miles per year thing...I think Boomer should come out west for a winter. You could leave him at my place and we could explore Utah, Death Valley, and Baja (3 different trips). We could avoid lifting tires! I'd love to go on a couple of your trips as well.
It's unfortunate about the gearing you need but at least your Dana 60 is a full floater, so you can still get home with a broken shaft.
I don't have experience in driving a camper van off road yet, so I can't really relate. My green van is much lighter and I don't notice much fade, even after bombing down a dirt road for 60 miles (at 55mph). I'm always aired down quite a bit: 15psi on all the faster roads, 9psi on the trails. My 35" tires soak up a lot when aired down. Anyhoo, I'm using the Fox shocks that Agile Off-Road valved and haven't touched them in 10,000 miles (2,500 of dirt). I'm a Fox fan (they've sponsored me in motocross for years).
I wish you could do the TTB Dana 50 conversion...it's so reliable and easy to maintain, but I get where you're coming from. I've owned 6 four wheel drive vans and the TTB is 10 times better than any conversion I've driven. I will be interested to compare our Falcons once we meet up for a trip!
Coil-overs will put a lot of stress on their mounting locations. The force isn't spread out like factory coil buckets. If you break a mount, you will most likely mess up an expensive shock and you'll need a welder to get back home. You're smart though, so I'm sure you will address that situation.
Judging by this thread I don't see shock maintenance being any problem for you! I wish I had your work ethic! It might be a pain in the butt to get the valving right at first. If I were you, I'd give Ramsey a call. He personally valves coil-overs and he owns a van similar to yours. I bet he can get you in the ballpark with the valving over the phone. He's very, very knowledgeable.
Here is his van. He is running Fox shocks as well (that he valved himself).
It's unfortunate about the gearing you need but at least your Dana 60 is a full floater, so you can still get home with a broken shaft.
I don't have experience in driving a camper van off road yet, so I can't really relate. My green van is much lighter and I don't notice much fade, even after bombing down a dirt road for 60 miles (at 55mph). I'm always aired down quite a bit: 15psi on all the faster roads, 9psi on the trails. My 35" tires soak up a lot when aired down. Anyhoo, I'm using the Fox shocks that Agile Off-Road valved and haven't touched them in 10,000 miles (2,500 of dirt). I'm a Fox fan (they've sponsored me in motocross for years).
I wish you could do the TTB Dana 50 conversion...it's so reliable and easy to maintain, but I get where you're coming from. I've owned 6 four wheel drive vans and the TTB is 10 times better than any conversion I've driven. I will be interested to compare our Falcons once we meet up for a trip!
Coil-overs will put a lot of stress on their mounting locations. The force isn't spread out like factory coil buckets. If you break a mount, you will most likely mess up an expensive shock and you'll need a welder to get back home. You're smart though, so I'm sure you will address that situation.
Judging by this thread I don't see shock maintenance being any problem for you! I wish I had your work ethic! It might be a pain in the butt to get the valving right at first. If I were you, I'd give Ramsey a call. He personally valves coil-overs and he owns a van similar to yours. I bet he can get you in the ballpark with the valving over the phone. He's very, very knowledgeable.
Here is his van. He is running Fox shocks as well (that he valved himself).
