School me on home-defense (gun related).

[spencyg]

I grew up around guns but don't own any of my own. I am not a trained professional with regards to firearms, and when my adreline starts going, my reactions and physical fine motor skills go to ****e. I think I'm not alone in this, and if my house were being targeted by unknown interuder, my adreline would undoubtedly make any attemps to use a firearm more dangerous to myself and my family than to the intruder. I'm not sure if this is just me being tweaky or not, but I have a feeling that most in a similar situation would find their hands to be very very very shaky.

As a result of this fact, guns are more of a liability to me than an asset. I live in the city and there is a somewhat rough area a few blocks away. I am intent on home safety and have employed these measures.

-I have a dog
-I always lock my steel clad doors and windows. Always.
-I have good motion sensing lights
-I make sure my property doesn't attact any un-due attention
-I know my neighbors and they know me
-A sticker indicating that your house is protected with an alarm goes a long way to keeping potential thieves out....my windows have alarm stickers.
-A phone is always in the bedroom

Does this protect me and my family from a strung out rapist? No. Does it keep the strung out rapist at bay until I can call the cops? Yes.

The cops are the professionals. If you can keep the intruder at bay (i.e. safely contained) until they arrive, you'll be far better off. If you're worried about not being able to keep the intruder at bay with physical deterrants, than revisit the above list and make sure you have a checkmark at each line.

Just my $0.02.

P.S. Why in the hell would you want to advertise that you've got guns in your house???? That is just BEGGING for a breakin by people who want your guns when you're not home! Holy crap!

Spence

 

[zimm]

.

Seems like you fired off that response without thinking about it. no worries, though. good discussion.

nope. but thanks for assuaging my fears.

are there rapists out there? sure. they tend to target single women. the other break ins are thefts. a thief cant buy drugs with your dead body. they arnt after your dead body. they are after the money and easily transported valuables. so... when someone is discussing "defending their family" with weapons, what they are really discussing is defending their possessions. 99.9% of the time.... because, you see, unless its a child slavery ring showing up at the door.... they dont want you.

so, if you want to spend all of your time contemplating how you get to blow away a guy in your house, instead of making him aware of your presence so he leaves, bully for you.

but i think that advise sucks, and im going to say why. a good security system, and a loud alert dog, will make him safer than you without having to draw up plans for legal homicide.

should he buy a mossburg marine grade shotgun for the closet? sure. but if its use isnt the 10th thing on the list for keeping your family out of harms way, youre lookin to kill. a firefight is last resort, not first...

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Spence, I appreciate your honesty about how you think you'd react in an emergency situation if you had a firearm. But I think you're being optimistic in counting on the police to arrive it time to save you from a "strung-out rapist." At least in Tucson you would be.

Several years ago, when we lived in town, Roseann was home alone and heard a noise in the side yard. She looked out a window and saw a young man there looking through our tools. She immediately called 911 and armed herself. Five minutes later the police still hadn't arrived, and she saw the man at the side door, which he tried and, finding locked, immediately set to attempting to pry open with a screwdriver. At that point Roseann had had enough and decided not to wait until the guy was inside, so she presented herself at the door's window with a handgun aimed, and shouted at the man to leave because she was armed and about to fire.

He took off.

The police arrived 10 minutes later.

Given the above scenario, have you considered at least arming yourself with a non-lethal weapon such as pepper spray?

 

[spencyg]

At least in Tucson you would be.

I certainly don't live in Tuscon, but your point is noted. Police are notorious for being around when you don't want them, and not being around when you do

Several years ago, when we lived in town, Roseann was home alone and heard a noise in the side yard. She looked out a window and saw a young man there looking through our tools.

I think this falls under the umbrella statement of letting your property attract undue attention. If the general populas (law abiding or otherwise) has access to your unsecured belongings, you've already lost. By having all sorts of fun tools for the intruder to have access to you have done two things:

#1 - Provided him with tools to gain entry into your house
#2 - Provided him with insight as to what other treasures he might find once in your house.

By not having stuff out and about, you limit another's ability to gain entry by restricting his abilities due to a lack of resources. Without a screwdriver, he probably would have moved on. Also, if you didn't get his attention by providing potential bounty in his theiving escapades, he probably never would have stopped on your property in the first place.

Given the above scenario, have you considered at least arming yourself with a non-lethal weapon such as pepper spray?

My wife has pepper spray. I have no problem using a baseball bat. This of course only applies to your home....but that is all this tread is addressing, so it works.

Spence

 

[BIGdaddy]

nope. but thanks for assuaging my fears.

are there rapists out there? sure. they tend to target single women. the other break ins are thefts. a thief cant buy drugs with your dead body. they arnt after your dead body. they are after the money and easily transported valuables. so... when someone is discussing "defending their family" with weapons, what they are really discussing is defending their possessions. 99.9% of the time.... because, you see, unless its a child slavery ring showing up at the door.... they dont want you.

so, if you want to spend all of your time contemplating how you get to blow away a guy in your house, instead of making him aware of your presence so he leaves, bully for you.

but i think that advise sucks, and im going to say why. a good security system, and a loud alert dog, will make him safer than you without having to draw up plans for legal homicide.

should he buy a mossburg marine grade shotgun for the closet? sure. but if its use isnt the 10th thing on the list for keeping your family out of harms way, youre lookin to kill. a firefight is last resort, not first...

hmmm...I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Being prepared and having enough courage to face an intruder with a gun, is far different, than "looking" to kill someone.

This is a basic arguement and I see you're coming from a far different place, and I respect that.

My house has lights, my house has a dog, my doors are locked. We close our blinds, and we do not own flashy things. If these things do not deter an intruder my next step is to end the threat with the best means possible, and thats a sneaky, dirty attack with a gun aimed center mass.

The assumption that an intruder, intent on stealing, is not interested in doing harm to the people in the house is very shortsighted, but again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

That's all I've got. moving on.

-Regards, Brian

 

[DH2002]

Spence, I appreciate your honesty about how you think you'd react in an emergency situation if you had a firearm. But I think you're being optimistic in counting on the police to arrive it time to save you from a "strung-out rapist." At least in Tucson you would be.

Several years ago, when we lived in town, Roseann was home alone and heard a noise in the side yard. She looked out a window and saw a young man there looking through our tools. She immediately called 911 and armed herself. Five minutes later the police still hadn't arrived, and she saw the man at the side door, which he tried and, finding locked, immediately set to attempting to pry open with a screwdriver. At that point Roseann had had enough and decided not to wait until the guy was inside, so she presented herself at the door's window with a handgun aimed, and shouted at the man to leave because she was armed and about to fire.

He took off.

The police arrived 10 minutes later.

Given the above scenario, have you considered at least arming yourself with a non-lethal weapon such as pepper spray?

Is this a common problem in Tucson with the Police arriving late? Cause While I do respect your wife for defending herself, the initial call was a suspicous man in yard, not break in, in progress which would warrent a different response time. Congrats to her though on not choosing to become a victim.

Also in my house along with my service pistol I have a save 12gauge semi auto shotgun with 5 in the tube ready to go.

 

[BIGdaddy]

I certainly don't live in Tuscon, but your point is noted. Police are notorious for being around when you don't want them, and not being around when you do



I think this falls under the umbrella statement of letting your property attract undue attention. If the general populas (law abiding or otherwise) has access to your unsecured belongings, you've already lost. By having all sorts of fun tools for the intruder to have access to you have done two things:

#1 - Provided him with tools to gain entry into your house
#2 - Provided him with insight as to what other treasures he might find once in your house.

By not having stuff out and about, you limit another's ability to gain entry by restricting his abilities due to a lack of resources. Without a screwdriver, he probably would have moved on. Also, if you didn't get his attention by providing potential bounty in his theiving escapades, he probably never would have stopped on your property in the first place.



My wife has pepper spray. I have no problem using a baseball bat. This of course only applies to your home....but that is all this tread is addressing, so it works.

Spence

Spence, spence...dude, did you just blame the Hanson's for an attempted robbery?

It wasn't their fault, buddy, lets get that straight. And tools being left out?

You don't have a storage shed outside?

I have like 75 tools outside...rototillers, powerwashers, shovels..all hanging on the backside of our mini-barn.

Jonathan was highlighting a scenario where cops were not a factor, and that a brave woman with a gun, was. She's safe, the perp is safe, and running the other way.

done deal.

 

[spencyg]

My house has lights, my house has a dog, my doors are locked. We close our blinds, and we do not own flashy things. If these things do not deter an intruder my next step is to end the threat with the best means possible, and thats a sneaky, dirty attack with a gun aimed center mass.

So this intruder breaks down your steel door, disables your dog, and then continues to go about their business knowing at that point you are awake and at the very least calling the cops, if not preparing to kill them. I'd say a person like this would be after something very specific and they KNOW you have it...not a casual intruder or somebody looking to commit a random act of violence. To be in a scenario listed above, you have either

A: Really really pissed somebody off and deserve what you get
B: Word got out that you have something specific of high value and they want it, no matter what.

Situation A - you're on your own. Sometimes people just get what they deserve.

Situation B - Why the hell are you telling ANYBODY that you have something of value in your house?

All other burgularies would be deterred by either your steel door or your dog. If it was a premeditated effort, they would wait until you are not home, at which point your gun would probably get stolen too.

Spence

 

[spencyg]

Spence, spence...dude, did you just blame the Hanson's for an attempted robbery?

It wasn't their fault, buddy, lets get that straight. And tools being left out?

You don't have a storage shed outside?

I have like 75 tools outside...rototillers, powerwashers, shovels..all hanging on the backside of our mini-barn.

Jonathan was highlighting a scenario where cops were not a factor, and that a brave woman with a gun, was. She's safe, the perp is safe, and running the other way.

done deal.

So you just provided a potential robber with tools to break in, or just items which they can steal without you ever knowing. A storage shed can be locked down just a securely as your house. Start at the top of the list with home security and work your way down. Keeping all of your loose belongings under control and out of plain sight should be considered at the top of the list. End of story.

Spence

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Without a screwdriver, he probably would have moved on.

Now that's an optimistic conclusion. It also incorrectly, and dangerously, implies that some of the blame for the incident lies with us, as Bigdaddy pointed out. A rock would have sufficed for this guy to break a window. Are we being negligent by having rocks in our yard?

I refuse to succumb to a Maginot mentality that assumes it's my responsibility to lock myself in my house, light up the yard with 5,000 watts, not have screwdrivers accessible in the side yard, plaster alarm stickers on every window, play a tape recording of a barking dog, have randomly programmed lights turning off and on, etc. etc. ad nauseum. While those might all be good ideas, the lack of one or all does not mean it's the homeowner's fault when someone breaks in.

 

[Deleted member 9101]

So you just provided a potential robber with tools to break in, or just items which they can steal without you ever knowing. A storage shed can be locked down just a securely as your house. Start at the top of the list with home security and work your way down. Keeping all of your loose belongings under control and out of plain sight should be considered at the top of the list. End of story.

Spence

I see your point, and do agree in a way... buuuuuuuut... you shouldn't have to lock up everything at your house.. you should be able to leave things out... I mean.. its YOUR house!!!!! Its not the home owners fault that some dip wad wants to steal his stuff... really.. do you blame a beautiful woman for getting raped simply because she was attractive?

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Spence, you're reminding me of the old "Don't make a good boy go bad" TV ads that implied it was a car owner's fault if he left his keys in the car and someone stole it.

So, how about those landscaping rocks?

 

[Superu]

But I think you're being optimistic in counting on the police to arrive it time to save you from a "strung-out rapist." At least in Tucson you would be.

Jonathan, this is a great point and one that each person probably should consider when determining what works best for them.

Where you live and the proximity of neighbors can have a big impact on these type of situations. For me, the police are generally at the door in less than 5 minutes and always show up with guns drawn when there is an alarm triggered. We also have great neighbors who are attentive and caring. Once had my Army Ranger neighbor come by because he saw the light in the driveway flashing on/off and thought we may be in distress. Turned out to be a bad photocell on the unit, but I very much appreciated his thoughtfulness in checking on us.

In our relatively quiet bedroom community, crime is infrequent so my primary lines of defense are perimeter security and monitoring, big and attentive dog, and a 12ga in a locked but accessible location should the need arise.

Simple extras like steel interior doors on bedrooms and bathrooms where you may need to fall back are often overlooked. It amazes me how people will think nothing of dropping $500 on a gun but balk at $150 for a solid door and frame for the bedroom!

If I lived somewhere with a much higher risk of break-in, I'd probably be inclined to add a biometric gun safe near the bed with a Glock 20 in it.

 

[spencyg]

the lack of one or all does not mean it's the homeowner's fault when someone breaks in.

Nope, you're absolutly right, but taking the correct steps to prevent somebody from even wanting to break in should be your first step. Continuing along with your list of things you shouldn't have to do in a perfect utopian society should also include locking your doors, leaving the keys in your truck, etc, but we all do this because we have to. We do this because there are different levels of criminals out there. Some criminals will only walk through an already-open door. Others will only try a doorknob to see if it is locked. Others will only pry on a door a little. Others own a lockpicking set. Then some will use a gun and blow the door right off its hinges. What kind of criminals are you trying to prevent? I suppose that is the real question. Your wife probably had a run-in with the door prying type of criminal....not the "blow the doors off the hinges with a gun" kind of criminal. Her just standing at the door telling the guy to go away would probably have been enough....the pointed handgun just drove the point home. I think I can safely say that in my part of the country and in my town, I'm dealing with the open door entering, doornob turning kind of criminal. I obviously have no grounds for commenting on Tuscon criminals....apologies.

Spence

 

[spencyg]

I see your point, and do agree in a way... buuuuuuuut... you shouldn't have to lock up everything at your house.. you should be able to leave things out... I mean.. its YOUR house!!!!!

This is absolutly true, but just because it is my house, in my neighborhood, doesn't mean that I feel comfortable leaving things out and available for passers by. Just because it is your right as a homeowner and a human to leave your things out around your property doesn't mean it is a good idea from a safety and security standpoint. This also applies to JH's comment on leaving the keys in your car. Should you be able to? Yes. Is it a good idea? No. If you remove an easy oppertunity from the equation, the outcome will be far different. To not cover these other bases before resorting to retaliatory violence puts you in a camp other than "responsible homeowner and family provider" in my ever so humble and often completely wrong opinion....

Spence