getlost4x4
Expedition Leader
i'm looking for either one. i found one LWB RRC on the board, but its in Cali.
I'll add some Bumpers and a Winch to the front.
I'll add some Bumpers and a Winch to the front.
Range Rover Classic vs. Disco II
- Thread starter getlost4x4
- Start date
Root Moose
Expedition Leader
In what way?
I'm not trying to start something - I'm honestly interested in what you saw.
RoverDude
Explorer
Let's not confuse anyone. As "TC" usually refers to Traction Control on a DII. Both the 03 & 04 DII have the 4.6 motor.
The 03 DOES NOT have the CDL (Center Differential Lock)
The 04 DOES have the CDL.
All DII 99-04 have Traction Control.
pnorvell
Adventurer
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
Most of the older knowledgable guys got fed up with the situation and left, and almost everybody left was non-car-guy newbie contractor engineers. Like, one well respected engineer left to go make furniture in California. Just complete disgust with the state of the industry and massive brain drain. This happened throughout the industry, but it seemed worst at DCX. Also, DCX didn't seem to attract very good people due to their hiring practices. I was on contract at Ford, and looking to move, I interviewed at Chrysler, and they came back with an offer that was even lower than Ford, which was already very low for an engineer. I eventually went to Dana for a whopping 40% raise.
More specific technical examples... Chrysler let go of way too many of their engineers, such that they couldn't effectively design cars anymore. When a program was within 1 year of launch, it was assumed to be mostly finished, and virtually all the engineers were reassigned to new programs. Of course, anybody who know's the auto industry knows the last year is the worst. For example, you'd have two parts suppliers required to redesign parts, but there would be no oversight engineer at DCX who would make sure the two new designs would work together. We showed up to a late proto build with some tubes we redesigned around some existing heat shields, only to find out the heat shield supplier had redesigned theirs as well, and we now crashed. Nobody was looking at this stuff.
I have some other very specific technical examples I'm just not quite comfortable printing on a public board. Maybe when Chrysler goes bankrupt and is no longer a going concern I'll tell my war stories.
Don't get me wrong, all 3 of them had issues, but DCX was the worst by far. In fact, I was laid off by Ford in 2004, I had reason to hate them, but I still bought I think 3 Ford vehicles after that fact. I also just bought a GM minivan. I will never buy a Chrysler vehicle.
More specific technical examples... Chrysler let go of way too many of their engineers, such that they couldn't effectively design cars anymore. When a program was within 1 year of launch, it was assumed to be mostly finished, and virtually all the engineers were reassigned to new programs. Of course, anybody who know's the auto industry knows the last year is the worst. For example, you'd have two parts suppliers required to redesign parts, but there would be no oversight engineer at DCX who would make sure the two new designs would work together. We showed up to a late proto build with some tubes we redesigned around some existing heat shields, only to find out the heat shield supplier had redesigned theirs as well, and we now crashed. Nobody was looking at this stuff.
I have some other very specific technical examples I'm just not quite comfortable printing on a public board. Maybe when Chrysler goes bankrupt and is no longer a going concern I'll tell my war stories.
Don't get me wrong, all 3 of them had issues, but DCX was the worst by far. In fact, I was laid off by Ford in 2004, I had reason to hate them, but I still bought I think 3 Ford vehicles after that fact. I also just bought a GM minivan. I will never buy a Chrysler vehicle.
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
Or, here's a specific example I feel I can share because it's NOT safety related. For the new Dodge Caliber, DCX was using a new 4 cylinder engine design called the "world engine" which was shared with Mitsubishi and Hyundai. They shared the design, but then DCX changed almost everything about it. There's this 1 3/8" water crossover tube that mounts between the water pump and the thermostat on the other side of the head. Now, they're sharing the design, but DCX sourced another supplier to make the tube, and changed the material from coated steel to aluminum. With 1 year left to go, they desourced that supplier, and gave it to us. We didn't have much time to build the tooling. IIRC, they used the Hyundai tube and gasket for all the prototype builds. Our protos off production tooling weren't ready until 3 months before launch. They started using them at that point, along with a new, cheaper rubber/steel/rubber sandwich gasket. So, they'd gone all this way using a steel tube with a composite gasket, then go into production with an aluminum tube and steel gasket with virtually no durability testing. Just before launch, the durability cars with the aluminum tubes started having leakes because the steel gasket was being attacked because of a galvanic reaction cell with the aluminum tube. I don't know what happened after that, because that's about the time I left.
Ford had much more engineering discipline. Sometimes it was maddening for engineers, but starting in 2002 it would take an act of Congress to make a late change on a vehicle. We know in hind sight this was a good thing, becuase Ford quality is now quite good. DCX continued allowing late changes all willy-nilly.
Ford had much more engineering discipline. Sometimes it was maddening for engineers, but starting in 2002 it would take an act of Congress to make a late change on a vehicle. We know in hind sight this was a good thing, becuase Ford quality is now quite good. DCX continued allowing late changes all willy-nilly.
James86004
Expedition Leader
That is fascinating, Rob. Especially the part about no supplier oversight. Our telescope went through that on a much smaller scale - the management thought they could subcontract the whole telescope out, and only have a staff of 4 running the whole show. None were engineers (but 3 of them were PhD scientists, which may also explain their failure). When they got 5 years behind schedule, the board of directors made them hire an engineering team. Now there is a team 50 engineers, and a lot of our work is getting all the different assemblies playing together. It is challenging to pick up the work of a long-gone subcontracted engineer and try to figure out how to finish the last 10%.
Root Moose
Expedition Leader
Very interesting reading, Rob. I used to really be annoyed with myself for not following my dream of doing something automotive engineering related after I got my mech. eng. I fell into the local (Ottawa) high tech job trap instead and often wondered about the green grass on the other side of the fence.
After reading your tales and the tales of others I'm glad I didn't though.
What I find really maddening is that there is really no solid reason why vehicles can't be made to a higher standard other than the perception that they won't sell due to the extra couple of hundred bucks per vehicle they will cost. If that were true none of the "imports" would be doing as well as they do in comparison.
After reading your tales and the tales of others I'm glad I didn't though.
What I find really maddening is that there is really no solid reason why vehicles can't be made to a higher standard other than the perception that they won't sell due to the extra couple of hundred bucks per vehicle they will cost. If that were true none of the "imports" would be doing as well as they do in comparison.
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
Root Moose, you're in Ottawa? I grew up in Manotick, got my degree at UofO. I submitted resumes to the auto industry on a whim, never thinking I'd get in because the demand for such a "cool job" must be huge. I ended up getting 3 interview lined up which I made on one trip. Came back with an offer from Ford and almost got one from Roush. I was surprised... packed my bags and moved down to Windsor.
But it was an eye opener. I expected to be surrounded by "car guys", but most were not. Most were just average engineers who worked there because it was a good job. Many had learned and become experts in their field just through experience, but otherwise knew nothing about cars. When the SHTF in 2001, the OEMs retired a lot of these guys early. That was a big loss. A lot of knowledge was lost. A big part of the problem was their hiring practices. They hired a lot of new guys through their internship programs, and usually went for grades instead of real knowledge. Contracting was the "back door" way in. Pay was low, and benefits non-existent. You ended up with some guys like me who did it because of a love for the industry. But the majority were bottom of the barrel types who couldn't get a "real job" somewhere else.
I'll never understand why they never tried to promote hiring of "car guys". Guys who have a passion for cars, do their own service, and maybe into motorsports.
Anyway, I don't regret the experience at all, despite all the problems. And I wouldn't change what I did if I could. But I am greatly saddened by the death of the industry. I still greatly wish I could work in it, as it is my passion. But I don't think there's any going back.
As to quality... yeah, it always seemed to be a forest for the trees thing. I really do believe that Toyota is successful because they put more money into the vehicle up front, and then not only do they sell for more, but they also save that money back on warranty costs. I know Ford and GM have really closed the gap, and the quality devide is more perception than anything now.
I went to this weeklong benchmarking excerise at Ford. We tore apart the transmission from the Focus to compare it to the Corolla. The problem was the mandate was to find cost savings ideas because... Toyota is making money so it must be because they're building them cheaper right? We didn't have 1 idea, because EVERYTHING in the transmission was better and more expensive.
There were guys doing the same the engines in the Windstar and the Honda Odyssey. Same deal. One engineer commented on the Honda having 6 bolt mains, incredible. Somebody else stated "well, we'll have that when we bring out the new Cyclone engine" or whatever it was. I was thinking... "Yeah, but they have this NOW. That engine is 2-3 years away, what will they be doing in 2-3 years?" That was brought into start contrast when the Cyclone program was cancelled 2 years later.
But it was an eye opener. I expected to be surrounded by "car guys", but most were not. Most were just average engineers who worked there because it was a good job. Many had learned and become experts in their field just through experience, but otherwise knew nothing about cars. When the SHTF in 2001, the OEMs retired a lot of these guys early. That was a big loss. A lot of knowledge was lost. A big part of the problem was their hiring practices. They hired a lot of new guys through their internship programs, and usually went for grades instead of real knowledge. Contracting was the "back door" way in. Pay was low, and benefits non-existent. You ended up with some guys like me who did it because of a love for the industry. But the majority were bottom of the barrel types who couldn't get a "real job" somewhere else.
I'll never understand why they never tried to promote hiring of "car guys". Guys who have a passion for cars, do their own service, and maybe into motorsports.
Anyway, I don't regret the experience at all, despite all the problems. And I wouldn't change what I did if I could. But I am greatly saddened by the death of the industry. I still greatly wish I could work in it, as it is my passion. But I don't think there's any going back.
As to quality... yeah, it always seemed to be a forest for the trees thing. I really do believe that Toyota is successful because they put more money into the vehicle up front, and then not only do they sell for more, but they also save that money back on warranty costs. I know Ford and GM have really closed the gap, and the quality devide is more perception than anything now.
I went to this weeklong benchmarking excerise at Ford. We tore apart the transmission from the Focus to compare it to the Corolla. The problem was the mandate was to find cost savings ideas because... Toyota is making money so it must be because they're building them cheaper right? We didn't have 1 idea, because EVERYTHING in the transmission was better and more expensive.
There were guys doing the same the engines in the Windstar and the Honda Odyssey. Same deal. One engineer commented on the Honda having 6 bolt mains, incredible. Somebody else stated "well, we'll have that when we bring out the new Cyclone engine" or whatever it was. I was thinking... "Yeah, but they have this NOW. That engine is 2-3 years away, what will they be doing in 2-3 years?" That was brought into start contrast when the Cyclone program was cancelled 2 years later.
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James86004
Expedition Leader
I have heard a rumor that Honda cycles all its engineers through its racing programs, in order to improve their capabilities. It seems like a good idea even if it is not true.
Root Moose
Expedition Leader
Yeah, I'm in the Ottawa area, but not originally from here. Had an application for GMI/Kettering handed to me by my guidance counsellor in high school and I never finished filling it out. I was too busy chasing tail from what I remember. 
It's a shame about the hiring practices. I wonder what the logic in it is as it does not make any sense to me. That said, it explains a lot about why the Japanese are more successful in that regard. You just have to see the Japanese TV programmes like Best Motoring to see what kind of analysis and critical thought goes into the car industry over there by watching a few reviews and engineer interviews. There may be that level of stuff going on over here in places like the Mustang and Corvette programmes but it certainly is not apparent in the rest of the model lines.
Imagine if a Jeep was built to the same standards as a Land Cruiser? It would be awesome but then Jeep would go out of business because it would no longer be a disposable vehicle. I wouldn't have to spend the thousands of dollars on my XJ making it as bulletproof as a TLC either.
<shrug />
But I'm not bitter.
It's a shame about the hiring practices. I wonder what the logic in it is as it does not make any sense to me. That said, it explains a lot about why the Japanese are more successful in that regard. You just have to see the Japanese TV programmes like Best Motoring to see what kind of analysis and critical thought goes into the car industry over there by watching a few reviews and engineer interviews. There may be that level of stuff going on over here in places like the Mustang and Corvette programmes but it certainly is not apparent in the rest of the model lines.
Imagine if a Jeep was built to the same standards as a Land Cruiser? It would be awesome but then Jeep would go out of business because it would no longer be a disposable vehicle. I wouldn't have to spend the thousands of dollars on my XJ making it as bulletproof as a TLC either.
<shrug />
But I'm not bitter.
Root Moose
Expedition Leader
I'm not certain if this is true or not but I certainly don't doubt it given how Soichiro Honda (founder of Honda) was wired. Do a google search on quotes by Mr. Honda, interesting guy from what I can tell.
Another tidbit, Honda was the only Japanese auto manufacturer started by an individual versus a company board. Not sure what that says but interesting nonetheless.
Too bad Honda doesn't make "real" 4x4s. I envision them being a cross between a Samurai and a FJ40. Bigger than a Sam but smaller than a FJ40 with a crazy rev'ing VTEC engine and gearing to match.
getlost4x4
Expedition Leader
very interesting reading. to bad i own a jeep commander.
although, i have not had a single issue with the commander. i wheel it pretty hard. i'm sure they didn't intend it to be wheeled the way i wheel it. the chassis is very rigid, i can open and close all the doors no matter how twisted the suspension is. overall i'm very happy with it, except the lack of a solid axle front end. the front end has too many noises and drives me crazy.
i really want a RRC or Disco just for the fact of being able to have a real frame again, i want to design more parts to expand my business.
What happened to Rovertym enginnering? i can't get their website to work anymore. are they still in business or have they disappeared as well?
although, i have not had a single issue with the commander. i wheel it pretty hard. i'm sure they didn't intend it to be wheeled the way i wheel it. the chassis is very rigid, i can open and close all the doors no matter how twisted the suspension is. overall i'm very happy with it, except the lack of a solid axle front end. the front end has too many noises and drives me crazy.
i really want a RRC or Disco just for the fact of being able to have a real frame again, i want to design more parts to expand my business.
What happened to Rovertym enginnering? i can't get their website to work anymore. are they still in business or have they disappeared as well?
FourByLand
Expedition Leader
That is too bad.
Their site works fine... maybe you should stick to jeeps. Rovers are a bit more technical than opening a web page.